Police and the PIT Maneuver - Maybe Not Great

"hillrat" (hillrat)
08/24/2020 at 08:18 • Filed to: None

Yo, !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . The craziest thing is that police departments are not required by the Federal government to keep track of the number of people they kill using this technique. Um, WHAT?

I can’t link directly to the video that’s inline with the story, but the 2nd video is BA-NA-NAS!!!!!! You get two views; one from inside the car and another from a cop car behind him when it happens. Cop PITs a truck, truck rolls, and the cop car launches over the truck and hits a light post about 15 feet in the air. The cop flying through the air lived and the guy in the truck died. How did this start? The mentally disabled man driving failed to stop at a signal.

DISCUSSION (47)

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > hillrat
08/24/2020 at 08:39

i did not know they didnt have to keep track...but i guess its not surprising

far as i can tell anyone the cops kill whilst chasing a suspect counts as a murder charge against the suspect anyway... wich is some ass backwards shit

pip bip - choose Corrour > hillrat
08/24/2020 at 08:41

how hard is it to simply pull over when police turn on lights/sirens?

hillrat > pip bip - choose Corrour
08/24/2020 at 09:07

Not hard, but not everyone is accorded the same level of courtesy, respect, presumption of innocence, etc. during a traffic stop. I’m a 50 year old dad with a properly registered and insured vehicle, there’s not much the cops can do to me cause I can bail myself out even if they arrest me over some bullshit. Even if your paper is straight and you have unpaid parking tickets (in DC they can take your car for this) or some kind of bullshit misdemeanor warrant, a traffic stop can really fuck up your life if you don’t have the money to make the situation go away. And let’s face it, most people don’t pay traffic fines because they don’t have the money.

Does that make it a good idea to run from the police? Absolutely not.

Should running from the police come with a possible death sentence? Absolutely not.

bob and john > hillrat
08/24/2020 at 09:12

yea, nah. You run, you face the consequences.

you get belligerent enough for the cops to justify using that on you, so be it. maybe had a rule cant be used in high-pedestrian traffic areas, and maybe not over a certian speed. but other then that, meh

hillrat > bob and john
08/24/2020 at 09:19

So your position is that defying police authority comes with a ( possible) death sentence?

Kinja'd!!!

bob and john > hillrat
08/24/2020 at 09:24

my position is if you decide to turn your car into a 2 ton projectile in public, then yea, what happens happens.

is your take that we should be breaking laws ? BRB going to rob a bank.

DipodomysDeserti > bob and john
08/24/2020 at 09:30

This is America, cops shoot children holding water guns here. Not a good idea to trust them with any sort of judgement call.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > pip bip - choose Corrour
08/24/2020 at 09:30

On top of what hillrat said; US cops are notoriously bad at handling people with mental disabilities. And driver's licenses are insanely easy to get. It's possible that the driver hadn't even noticed he was being pulled over (didn't click the link) or panicked even though he would've been totally fine and maybe gotten off with a warning. Some cops are understanding of you take a bit to notice them and then a bit longer to find a safe space to pull over. Some cops go nuts if you're not completely pulled over within 5 seconds even if it's not safe. There's no standard here, there's no deescalation training, there's no presumption of innocence, there's no oversight. What we have instead is decades of glorifying unnecessary and over the top violence from police.

facw > hillrat
08/24/2020 at 09:32

Almost like car crashes are dangerous and so you intentionally cause one without good reason.

And police not keeping track of deaths caused by PIT maneuvers is really just a subset of police not having to keep track of deaths they cause by anything. It’s all voluntary reporting to get stuff to the national level.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > bob and john
08/24/2020 at 09:35

Except these maneuvers are extremely dangerous for everyone in the vicinity, including innocent bystanders. The fact that we aren’t collecting data at the very least on it is asinine (say one bystander is killed for every 100 times this maneuver is used, would you still be okay with its use?) . Data is how you determine what actually is effective procedure for policing (and guess what, time and time again the data we do have says de-escalation is best) . Same with gun violence research being banned at the federal level. It’s just dumb and it’s all political.

bob and john > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s
08/24/2020 at 09:41

if you would read my original comment,

“maybe had a rule cant be used in high-pedestrian traffic areas, and maybe not over a certian speed. but other then that, meh”

maybe it would make more sense to you.

as far as ‘what is one life worth’ if a bystander is killed, but we stop a serial killer who is out for blood, or a drunk driver...is it worth it? you tell me.

EDIT: i agree that no data collection is absurd. But at this point, US police forces? I’m not shocked.

bob and john > DipodomysDeserti
08/24/2020 at 09:42

and notice how you guys are the only place in the world with that kind of issue?

So, MAYBE. Its not the maneuver itself thats wrong, its the choice of when and where to apply it.

which then falls back on shitty cops / shitty training.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > bob and john
08/24/2020 at 09:43

Let’s say you’re out on the triumph enjoying some twisties in mountains. Narrow road, blind corners, gravel just inches past the white lines. Cop wants to pull you over for having a little too much fun. You notice him, and intend to pull over, but you panic in the moment and don’t think to indicate this to him in any way and just focus on finding a safe space to stop. But you can’t, the road doesn’t allow it, you’re either in danger of getting hit by someone coming around the corner or there is literally zero shoulder space, just drop- off or steep hillside. You panic a little more, and unconsciously maybe roll onto the throttle ever so slightly to get to a safe space even faster. It’s already been a bit since the lights were flipped on, but the cop isn’t a rider and can’t understand your perspective. He thinks you’re about to run. You’re not, but that’s what he thinks.

This may sound way too specific to be real, but it is. I just had a conversation the other day with a rider this happened to. The cop didn’t pit him, but got within inches of his back tire and was being scary aggressive. Rider feared for his life. Cop yelled at rider for “running”.

Point is, bad cops make bad assumptions about why people are doing what they're doing. This should never cost someone their life. If you think it should, then you're basically saying people don't deserve a fair trial. And that my friend, is a very scary thought.

bob and john > AMGtech - now with more recalls!
08/24/2020 at 09:48

“You notice him, and intend to pull over, but you panic in the moment and don’t think to indicate this to him in any way and just focus on finding a safe space to stop.”

if this is the kind of thing that makes me panic, then i should not be riding end of story.

“This should never cost someone their life” I agree with this. HOWEVER. of those 30 odd deaths, a not-small chunck of them were kids who stole the parents car. Or someone who (likely) wasnt wearing a seatbelt.

The only ones I genuinely feel poorly for are those who were passengers in the car. One thing to pay with your life for a stupid move. Quite another to cost someone else theirs.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > bob and john
08/24/2020 at 09:52

Yea, I saw that, but your comment just seemed dismissive of changing anything. And I re-read my comment and it came off a little more aggressive than I meant to, sorry about that. I get a bit riled up when people seem dismissive about collecting data or using science to determine policy.

The LAPD seems to have some good rules in place that have made it relatively safe (not over 35mph and only for pursuing felons and drunk drivers).

facw > facw
08/24/2020 at 09:54

Somehow that was supposed to be “you shouldn’t intentionally cause one”.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s
08/24/2020 at 09:54

It’s way more than 1 in 100. I can’t remember where but I read about the fatalities and it was shockingly close to half. Maybe like 1/3?

DipodomysDeserti > bob and john
08/24/2020 at 09:55

Trust me, there are shitty, dangerous cops all over the world. Canada is the suburb of North America, so more of you guys just appreciate them.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available
08/24/2020 at 09:58

While I don’t doubt the high speed PIT maneuvers are indeed that high when factoring in the driver , m y comment was specifically about bystanders only. That being said, it seems the LAPD has found a set of rules that makes it relatively safe: not above 35mph and only for pursuing felons and drunk drivers.

old-busted-hotness-still-cant-comment > hillrat
08/24/2020 at 09:58

Haha, you used “presumption of innocence” and “traffic stop” in the same sentence.

bob and john > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s
08/24/2020 at 09:58

and i can see your reasoning, point to you.

I do find it ABSURD that no data is collected...and yes, the LAPD has some good rules....maybe I would bump the limit higher, but not much past that.

bob and john > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s
08/24/2020 at 09:58

and i can see your reasoning, point to you.

I do find it ABSURD that no data is collected...and yes, the LAPD has some good rules....maybe I would bump the limit higher, but not much past that.

hillrat > bob and john
08/24/2020 at 10:03

I think you missed my comment where I said, “Does that make it a good idea to run from the police? Absolutely not.”

hillrat > bob and john
08/24/2020 at 10:09

I think the LAPD rules reflect an abundance of caution, which is correct when using deadly force. Common sense and s imple physics tells you what’s safe at 35 MPH is much, much, much, less safe at 70+MPH.

We’re all in agreement on the insanity of this not being tracked at the Federal level.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > bob and john
08/24/2020 at 10:13

I don’t disagree with that, but when you’re a newer rider it’s real easy to get flustered for a lot of people. The guy I talked to was. Riding for less than a year, never touched gravel on two wheels of any kind. R3 , pegged at like 8 over on a short straight. Cop thought it was a crazy fast crotch rocket, said this mind you, and that a lot of people on those run. So the cop made a call based on what others have done in the past. Not necessarily on what this guy did. That’s fucked up. There’s nothing wrong with using your experience to navigate a situation, that’s a good thing, but don’t assume every situation is the same.

A lot of kids, wrongly, “ borrow” their parents cars without asking because teenagers are fucking stupid and hormones are a thing. That doesn’t mean their deaths are justified.

I agree with your other comment that the maneuver is less of an issue than the cops who are using it. Used too often and unnecessarily before less drastic options are attempted. Cops here need retraining and a oversight, bare minimum.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > AMGtech - now with more recalls!
08/24/2020 at 10:13

My town was a series of villages with country roads between that just merged into one suburb. As such theres 45mph zones wih little to no s houlder or clustered stores/houses with no shoulder and the cops never has the person pull into a side street or parking lot. Its dumb in “downtown” as it instantly shuts down a lane, and downright dangerous as many of the 40/45 zones have poor line of sight.

The res one twisty bit that is like eau rouge, right after a hillcrest. M ultiple times a year there is a bad accident, and rarely do the cops go to the other side of the hill for warning flares. My parents lived on the opposite sie e of the hill and youd hear the tire screetches as someone crested then realized the road was blocked with people and rescuers.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas
08/24/2020 at 10:16

I see that exact situation multiple times a year. It scares the shit out of me every time. So many cops show that they have absolutely zero critical thinking skills, but are just mindless drones following orders and their own fucked up culture.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > hillrat
08/24/2020 at 10:50

The PIT maneuver is proven to be highly unpredictable above 35 mph. Below that, it can be safe in certain situations where the driver poses a clear threat to the safety of the public. And it certainly should have a speed cap in all situations. There is such a narrow range of applicable situations for the PIT that it really calls into question why police departments rely so heavily on it.

However , the box in method is even safer at those speeds unless the driver has a gun. I don’t understand why this isn’t used more given the significantly reduced risk of harm and costly damage to patrol cars.

Basically, above 5 5 mph it should never be performed and never above 35 unless deadly force is authorized and it should never be performed for a misdemeanor.

Perhaps most concerning is the danger to pedestrians and other drivers. That story of the man who was killed by the PIT horrfies me.

Five weeks later, a landscaper working in the area found the body of 41-year-old Marcus McCrary, who had been struck and killed by the out-of-control Hyundai. McCrary’s body, which was found hidden behind bushes, was missing its lower left leg, the landscaper told The Post.

Police later found the lower part of McCrary’s leg in a wheel well of the Hyundai in an impound lot.

“The officers said speeds were up to 90 miles an hour,” Walker told The Post, saying that both the police and Daniels are to blame. “There’s not any given time you can go down that street and there aren’t pedestrians.”

The fact that they didn’t thoroughly search the wrecked car enough to find a severed limb speaks to the recklessness of our police departments. I can’t find the words to express how much this story disgusts me.

5 WEEKS LATER THE BODY WAS DISCOVERED! 5 WEEKS!

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > bob and john
08/24/2020 at 10:50

Police later found the lower part of McCrary’s leg in a wheel well of the Hyundai in an impound lot.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s
08/24/2020 at 10:52

Yes, I agree. There is a narrow range of circumstances and speeds where it is beneficial. The problem is using it as a catch all solution to any fleeing car regardless of offense or speed.

bob and john > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available
08/24/2020 at 10:52

me question there is: did no one see a fucking leg and go: shit i wonder whos this is?

hillrat > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available
08/24/2020 at 10:52

There was a lot of horror in that story, but that was probably the worst part. How do you NOT find a severed limb when inspecting a vehicle?

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > bob and john
08/24/2020 at 10:55

EXACTLY! Not to mention the fact that a body managed to go unnoticed for 5 weeks alongside a highly trafficked residential street and it took a landscaper to find him.

How did no one notice the stench of rotting flesh in either location?

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > hillrat
08/24/2020 at 10:59

It’s sort of a two part horror.

One, a man goes missing on a stretch of road where a police chase took place. A shoe is found at the scene but the suspect did not lose one. No one notices the stench of rotting flesh from the body of the man flung into some nearby bushes along a highly trafficked residential street for 5 WEEKS! 5 WEEKS! 5 WEEKS! 5 WEEKS! CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT?

Then, no one notices the stench of rotting flesh or blood from a severed limb while searching the car for contraband. I get that the front of the car would be pretty smashed up and not an obvious place to hide drugs, but a cursory search would have revealed a frickin leg stuck in the wheel well. Then, nobody notices the smell of the leg for 5 weeks and only then after they specifically were looking for it. Not to mention the blood that would have come with it. This story ruined my day.

Textured Soy Protein > bob and john
08/24/2020 at 11:09

Fuck this hypothetical “stop a serial killer” bullshit.

If you read the article you’d see it was about a cop who killed teenagers joyriding in a stolen minivan.

BigBlock440 > hillrat
08/24/2020 at 11:09

So your position is that defying police authority comes with a (possible) death sentence?

Has that ever not been the case?

Milky > hillrat
08/24/2020 at 11:37

Semi related, I watch dash cam crash videos. They’re like a train wreck, just cant look away. Anyways, its insane how easy some cars, well actually mostly SUVs, will flip over. I wonder how much that plays a part in it. Everyone is driving taller cars now.

fintail > bob and john
08/24/2020 at 11:42

You cause a needless crash that impacts someone, you face the consequences. PIT someone and hit me, and I’m going to sue you so hard your head will fall off, I’ll then also have your name and other PII and will then hound you for the rest of your life. No corrupt irresponsible criminal thin blue line glorified frat “union” will help.

How many innocents die as collateral damage in poorly planned chases to begin with? I bet that tune would change if mommy or daddy was claimed.

fintail > Textured Soy Protein
08/24/2020 at 11:45

I’d love to see data on serial killers stopped by heavy handed chase procedures. I won’t hold my breath.

What if, lol.

Jb boin > farscythe - makin da cawfee!
08/24/2020 at 11:52

In here, if there is a death even caused by an accident there is an internal investigation and i believe that the cops directly involved are automatically put on “leave” (not the right term but you got the idea) until they are cleared for duty.

someassemblyrequired > hillrat
08/24/2020 at 12:00

US cops should have to watch this OPP video from the 90s - with former Ohio State Highway Patrolman and legendary Toronto newscaster Mark Dailey :

hillrat > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available
08/24/2020 at 13:40

So many people failed so many times over the course of 5 weeks.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > hillrat
08/24/2020 at 13:44

It is a nightmare case cacophony of errors.

hillrat > BigBlock440
08/24/2020 at 13:49

I.....

Kinja'd!!!

BigBlock440 > hillrat
08/24/2020 at 13:58

I mean, I guess Walker and officer Coltrane never killed anybody, so maybe there was a time you could run from the police and expect to not face serious consequences, but there hasn’t been in my adult lifetime.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available
08/24/2020 at 21:12

Only guess was looking it up was winter so could have froze, which is why it wouldn’t stink. But it is atlanta, i dont’ know if it would be cold enough.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas
08/25/2020 at 00:26

Of course all the bad things have to happen in Georgia. That county is a little bit out there but not so far out that it doesn't scare me.